Sign up to get updates from us
Mark Hutchinson is an outstanding FX Trader who has achieved great success over the past few years.
In this excellent interview, Mark shares his journey into trading with AlphaMind co-hosts Steven Goldstein and Mark Randall.
Mark talks about the struggle of the early years, the trial and error processes, his dyslexia, and the learning process he went through over 4 ½ years before finally starting to succeed.
Mark’s passion for trading shines through in this interview, a passion he has also turned into a very successful mentoring and training business, Falcon FX, with over a thousand members across the world.
This interview is a great discussion on topics to vital to trading success, including:
Guys, I really appreciate you having me on the podcast. Excited to share my experiences. So for the listeners, my name is Mark Hutchinson, I'm from the UK and I'm 28 years old. So I actually started to learn how to trade 10 years ago now. So in 2008 pretty much, I'm sure you'll remember the financial crisis and as you can imagine, it piqued my interest and I saw a lot of things on the news like you know , Lehman brothers going under. And I knew quite a few people at the time trading back then and they, they went short on quite a lot of the banking stocks and they made a bit of money. And this, this really made me keen because in my opinion, you know , I was very new to the markets . I didn't know too much, but I thought that you could only make money in a bull market. I didn't realize that you could profit from, you know, stocks dropping and things like that. So since then I started a course. I was made redundant as an engineer when I first started off and I had a certain amount of savings, I felt that, well, do you know what? I don't want to be in that position again where I'm being made redundant. I want to take you know , destiny into my own hands. So I invested the savings. I had pretty much 70% of it into a course and then went onto sort of various courses and that , and I learned a lot of good things and through my journey I went through trial and error, trial and error. But being dyslexic, I found learning to trade and all these kinds of things, very, very difficult. But why I was really good at was spotting patterns and I was always kind of a bit stubborn within the market. So I tended to move towards, you know, trying to do my own thing. And I at the time it didn't know that that was going to be good or not, but I was just, I was so focused on testing new things and it took me about four and a half years to break through. Once I brought the CG consistency, I then moved into trading investor capital. So it took me a very, very long time. And as you can imagine through all those years, you tend to second guess yourself and you think, you know, is it really for me, especially when you have outside influence from family and things like that. But I carried on persisting because I knew this was something I was really passionate about and I just had a love for the charts , right ? I was passionate about the charts and he trades his listing, they know exactly what I'm talking about. So move towards that. I started trading investor capital. The first part didn't go particularly well if I'm completely honest. And that was due to a lot of limiting beliefs that I felt that I didn't have that I thought I'd actually overcome at the time. So I had a bit of a rough patch going into the trading investor capital for the, I'd say the first seven weeks I found it very difficult. And then I adjusted, you know, I just did just like we adapt and I carried them moving forward. And then fast forward another couple of years, I then started teaching people on the site because I was, you know , being reached out to on a regular basis because I knew just some traders in industry and just from all over the place learning from different styles and they would often ask me, you know, can you help me out with this? Can you help me have a better psychology or this part of technical analysis. So I would always just naturally say , oh , these are a few processes. The tips that helped me, I would then get an overwhelming response of this isn't helped , this is transformed the way I look at the market. And to me I'm thinking these things are quite obvious, you know, and not realizing that I've got my own unique style and I'm trying very differently to most retail traders. So that sparked my interest. And then I started doing on a kind of weekly thing and then I found the Falcon project. It's something that I thought, you know what? If I'm going to impact people, I can't, can't impact people. Just one on a one to one basis. I want to impact as many people as in the world and I'm sure we'd all agreed that there's such a overwhelming amount of people, of people that are unsuccessful in trading and that really sparked an interest in me to think why is that? Is it all just because they don't have the right mindset or is there any technicals? Because this is something I know not many people want to talk about. They only focus on the psychology, right? Because of course psychology, you know the biggest part, but they leave out that technical part and not realize that there is still more technical things. You still need to be equipped to it, but you still need to understand what you're doing to a higher level than that can be congruent with that. And then, you know , it just spiraled out of control. We started seeing some crazy progression within our own community and that kept growing organically and organically. And here we are now over a thousand people all over the world and it's just growing and growing . So that's a bit of an intro to myself and a hope that gives your listeners a bit of perspective.
Speaker 4:I that that was brilliant. Thank you mark. And um, you know what , so many questions came up for me in, in there. I'm going to round back to some of them and I've got a couple of questions I want to ask you that recites up and you can bring these things into those questions or we could go back to them later. My standard question which I, which I ask a lot of people is what three things that you now know that you wish you had known at the start of your training career or early in your trading career?
Mark Hutchinson:That's a good question. Uh , if it goes the thing back to evolve , there's a number of things. Drivers think it's three things, three most important things. First one I would say processes. Processes is always , uh , something that I really knew nothing about. And I realized that I was so focused on, you know, making money just like we all do in trading. Right? And I was so focused on that, that I forgot about processes and why start with, if I was to think back now, I really wish I knew that if I focused more on my processes, the outcome would be the time that I designed as a side effect of having a great process. So that's something I would say is number one. Number two would be, I would say, let's see , number two would be how to minimize the impact of money. And , and this goes back to the question that you was going to bring up about limiting beliefs, right? I had a limiting belief about money because I was, you know , I was born in, in a counselor state . I wasn't born into money or anything like that. So I'm very sort of working class background if you like. And people are only really making 30,000 pounds a year. So anyone doing more than that was a huge, huge thing. So when I first received my investment, the first six figures , some I , I felt uneasy. Even though I was excited I was ready for it. What I was doing was I was taking on the emotional weight of , of the big amounts. So let's just for arguments for an example, say take a hundred thousand pounds. If we looked at 100,000 we tend to magnify that if we're not comfortable with it in mind, in our minds a lot. So rather than me thinking, well, I only risk 1% per trade on my account , so I'm risking a thousand pound per trade. What I started to do is I started to think about the whole amount as this big thing of this hundred thousand et cetera. And it , it really made me feel uneasy. So the one thing that I wish I learned is that stop taking on the emotional weight of the big amount . And this is, you know, tip for traders growing and scaling their capital . And I found this to help so many people in the community is there. Rather than focus on that, focus on the amount you're actually risking. And what that does is it minimizes the impact emotionally in your mind because whether we like it or not, we are attached to money to some degree, and I don't think to strive to be this kind of robot where there's no emotion whatsoever is ever a reality. There's always going to be some level of emotion within the market. So I wished, I really, really wish guys that I knew how to minimize that impact and it, it took me a long time to realize how to do that. I would say a third thing would be forecasting and this really links to the subconscious. So I find that especially in the retail side of things, and I'm sure you've heard of this and seen this, that they're very reactionary. They have reactionary mindset, they buy the highs , they sell the lows , these kinds of things, and they wait for the market to happen. They wait for the news to happen and they wait for something to happen to them, make a decision. And what I learned over, I would say it took me about two , three, four, five year period where I started to realize that these are the really that probabilistic type mindset, these are the possibilities. These are the probabilities of us linking to patterns . So say for example, of what they're going to play out and rather than letting the market happen to me, I started thinking, well back tested of 30 years of data. These are the most likely scenarios to play out. So what I would start to do is I would start to map those out in my mind and think, well this is, this is number one, this is number two, this is number three. Each one of those, if any one of those clouds , I have an entry criteria, I know how to manage my risk and I know how to trail my stop loss, all those kinds of things. I know how to deal with every scenario. So what that did is it made me hesitate less so rather than hesitating because what happens is traders, what they see the market, they see the entry criteria. They might have a particular strategy and they will still hesitate. Why is that? Because they haven't planned out how they're going to manage it. They haven't planned out the scenarios of if it slightly changes, how are they going to deal with that? They kind of just, if that makes sense, is that canvas shape formation arises, I'm going to put the entry on and they feel uneasy. And that to me is it's not scalable and it's unsustainable because God forbid that person gets given more capital than they're very, very unstable and more capital. So I would say that just tracking bats out. So the first thing of course would be, you know, having great processes and second would be how to minimize the impact. And then the third thing would be forecasting that made me very proactive within the markets.
Host 2 Mark R :Yeah. Very interesting . You talked , um , slightly earlier you said that you'll foundation was, was as an engineer. Um, and I've certainly found an awful lot of people in the markets have had an engineering type degree, have become very good traders as opposed to those that have had a , uh , more of a, a pure mathematical sort of mindset. So I think the engineering does encompass some degree of creativity as well. I think the two things together to help drive , um , a very different mindset, which I guess if you, you sort of rediscovered that in a way I've, I've over your journey by the sound of it and I'd actually applying some of the principles that would've come from your earliest sort of training. I just started to apply those processes into the market and I guess that's great for you . I mean , well done on access in that many people find it difficult to find their direction and quite understand and all that sort of personality type and what they've learned historically fits into aligning themselves to a product or product range to trade.
Mark Hutchinson:Interesting that you say that and I didn't actually think of it like that. Um, I , I didn't really look into my engineering background to think that that would , um, because I still exactly what you just mentioned, that I thought that the more, let's say mathematical that people would be, would let say make them good traders. But again, I was very wrong when I started to realize that. And, you know, teach a lot of people, cause I know some very, very highly intelligent people and they still struggle to be great traders. It's not that they don't understand the technical, so they don't understand what's actually going on is the big issue that they come into is that they just fail to think in a probabilistic mindset. They don't understand that the market's not perfect. It's an imperfect market. So we need to understand that consistency comes from a series of random events if you like. And they can't cope with that because they're so used to this means this and this has to do this. And it's very mechanical in that sense. But I've found that often doesn't really breed successful traders from what I've seenn.
Speaker 4:That's fascinating. Can I, can I jump in there because , um, I've recognized the same pattern over the years. Um, and I , I, I, I don't know how familiar you are always with systems theory. Um, but systems theory is the idea that everything is a system, but there's , there's basically two types of system. There's a closed system and an open system and a closed system doesn't allow for outside forces to influence the mechanics of that system. So a clock is a closed system. A rocket is a closed system and rocket science is really a mathematical science. Um, on the other hand, an engineering mindset is more for open systems where you're testing what happens when a system interacts with the environment. And you can never know the answers to that. You can have as many calculations as, as possible. But there's so many permutations that , that there's always a possibility of a black s w a black swan type of , right . And I've noticed how so many of the successful traders I coached over the years have this mindset where they, they never think they know the answer, which keeps them curious all the time. It keeps them asking questions, not thinking, they know that ,
Host 2 Mark R :I'm sorry . There's a difference between seeing the market and feeling the market. And I think that people that are mathematically or inside of tend to be very siloed, very inward thinkers , um , and often driven that they know best. You know, because they've got so many doctorates or whatever, a a rocket scientist per se. But actually, and we know that hedge funds themselves are starting to mix up the sort of people they have on board from being perhaps the mathematical, you know, rocket scientists to actually, you know , apart from the Isaac Newton's having some Michelangelo's cause you need that creativity because it's, you know, markets are so difficult that you need to look at the ots for opportunities. So I hate that fits in with , with , with the engineering mindset, which ironically for yourself as sort of some sort of become the sort of the side and driver. So the way that you're beginning to move.
Speaker 4:And that's the poker mindset as well. And I know some hedge funds, I've looked at hiring poker professionals or at least favorite sitting them into the process because they, they have that mindset. It comes into game theory as well, doesn't it in the list of stuff.
Mark Hutchinson:Well is it that there's something, something that I would love to just jump in on. There is actually something that we got, it's called the coin coin theory. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the coins or you may be, but essentially you may have had this explanation before, but if we was to take a coin for example, and it was weighted on the head side 70% and we were to flip that coin a hundred times a hundred flips, we would probably go back if we could choose that, you know, majority more often , not 70% of the time there or there abouts , there'll be heads. Right. And although that we know it works, we don't know the sequence. And what I've found, just like you mentioned about poker players, they, and they understand that that is a series of random events and you can still have a bad hand if you'd like and then still win. Right? And it's the same with trading. When you understand that you have a formula that's your head , that's your , that's your , let's say a series of events. You don't know the sequence. I can't tell you from a hundred flips that it's going to be heads 20 times first and then towels twice. And then what that does is it gets you comfortable taking losses because you don't know the sequence and then you don't take a loss as, oh, I was wrong. And you don't take a win as I was. Right. There is no right and wrong. This is again probabilities.
Host 2 Mark R :Hmm . Very interesting. I think the , uh , the big casinos in Vegas understand patterns of random behavior. You know, you , I think like they did experiments months where you've got somebody, a bunch of people to choose a randomly , uh , red or black for the roulette table. And then I got the market supervision people in and they mixed up like a hundred people's sort of ideas of random behavior plus a couple of um , true behaviors that came off the roulette table that market supervision people could see exactly which were the true random ones. Because randomness can sometimes be actually a bit more sequential than most people think. And we try to alternate things. But actually in reality you could have red, red, red, red, red, red, red, red, red, black, and at the tables we're churning out that sort of pattern. So yet , and traders need to understand that, that sometimes you need to understand the fact that randomness can be sort of predictable.
Speaker 4:That's all I'm saying . There's another point , and I think you've already alluded to it slightly earlier, March mark , that even though it's random, it still affects the way we fail. So that's example where you could have 70% of heads, you can still get five to 10 hours in a row in a rum . And that can throw you out even though you know it's random. And that's part of managing yourself as a trainer . And I think that's a scare which a lot of people, a lot of people forget about. I wonder if you've got any experiences like that.
Mark Hutchinson:Yeah, I, I think the, the most important thing there is that we do feel that, right? Because it doesn't matter how good of a trader you are. You know, recently there was about two, two and a half months ago, I took four losses in a row and I'm not used to that sequence because I would just, you know, roll up my strike rate pretty high. But you know, it's never going to be 100%. But as I start, great . But taking four in a row, I would take four losses in a month , you know, it's normal, right? But taking four in a row, I was never used to that sequence and not through meal. It really did. It made me hesitate for the next trait . Then I thought, pull yourself together what you're doing, you know, your trading investor capital, what's going on here? And it's because I wasn't used to that. And I think that it , I think we need to realize it's traded. It doesn't matter how good you are, there will come a time where things can throw you off and we do feel a certain way. But what I did that helps me to kind of pull me back on track straight away is to realize I started to cross reference in those traits because everything I do is subconscious because I've been doing it for so long now and I've got a trading plan that I follow and it's very strict now. I would look at that and I thought, let me go and cross reference those trades to the four losses . And I want to say, did I, did I mess up it because I'm a human? You can make human error. Did I do something wrong? And I looked at it and I followed the plan as normal and I realized that was just a sequence. And then it made me feel fine again. So yeah, that would, I would say that would be my experience personally. And I've seen a lot of people do that. And what I always say to a lot of traders in the Falcon community is that whenever you have these sequences, what you'll find is more often than not, the people that tend to have these losses and they feel uneasy or they're second guessing themselves, is that they weren't sticking to any kind of plan whatsoever. There were just, you know, feeling what they thought was good and then they'll go back and look at it and say, well, I actually only stuck to my plan 50% of the time that month. Well , no wonder you're not getting any performance or achieving anything because you're not sticking to your plan. You know, you have to have something practical to go reference.
Speaker 4:Yeah. That they're undermining your set themselves. I mean, it's , it's interesting because my trading style was very right when I was a trained , I'm kind of back, you know, at least 10 years now, but my trading style was, was that way round in the [inaudible] I had a very low strike rate. Um, I think on average it was about 13% in my, in my, in my, in my final year of trading or my final full year , which was actually my best at a year , my stroke rate was 10%. In other words, 10% of the trades I co that year were witness and yet the are going to be able to say Ron , it was, I think I took 30 trades that year. Um, the , you know, these were sort of quite big traits . Three if the [inaudible] a kike sue , they make really big money and he approached thing with me or my method or my approach was about when you get those traits and then to get the size on as they averaging and they start leaving in a trade and then really running. So I would make a lot more on the big trades than the small trades. Now the big problem was that suicides came in May at one time, may not remember . That was really challenging. I was a lot of money down for the year ago . Yeah . And there were no, then I sort of had a huge trading mate. But yeah , it was really managing yourself and reminding myself, this is my method, this is my process. It works for me on every year. Trades don't come along on routine. They're random in a sense. You know that I always used to think they are like buses. You know, you , you can wait hours and hours for postulates . Suddenly three or four come along once. That's what we're used to selling on the hours . Lots of transplants on cycles and you had to condition your mindsets or thing like that.
Speaker 5:I had to walk away too until the microwave weren't actually, it's time to just take a pause and step away rather than to trade for the sake of it. Which can also lead to significant.
Mark Hutchinson:That's a question I would, that's a question I would love to jump in and throw you away . Actually try for Trey does have had that kind of um, you know, let's say where they've been in that experience where they're , they're not doing well for example, where they're maybe second guessing themselves and they've had a bad period at . Would you advise stay , have you or have you seen benefit of traders? Maybe taking a break, maybe stepping away. And I mean only for like a couple of days we're taking a step back cause I often feel like traders that I speak to, they feel that even when it's going through a bat they feel guilty for having a day off from the charts. I wonder would that be the same in more yours, your side of trading? I
Speaker 4:I advise tried this a lot and , and I spoke about this in one of our previous podcasts. Um, there's guy that I coached who it was, is probably the best trader I think I've ever coached. He works, he works for a hedge fund in, in Asia. He used to work for , um , for us investment back when I was coaching him and he was also a big poker player and I've spoken about this guy, look, you may find he sneaks into nearly every podcast at some port pets . He was just such a phenomena with the picture and he was a world 200 poker champion , um, as well whilst being amazingly enough, a bank market maker. And he said to me that when I'm at the table playing poker, I am no better than anyone else. Everyone at that table knows the probability, the hands, they have a winning successful style that works for them. He said, well , I do better than any of them because I walk away. You better from the table. That's what he believes is his . Okay. Something I call closure. So for example, if we go back to that randomness , um , the colts in poker all randomly. Okay. So you can sit there for two hours and just have bad hands. It doesn't matter whether you're the best player in the world. You can have a run of really lousy kennels and he would get to the point where, you know, he's pot size, it's written link, you know, bit by bit by bit. And he's going to get to a point in the game where that effect was start impacting the way he plays the game. It was start putting on hands that you should have . I'm playing winning hands , Bradley , and he knows that he needs to remove himself from the situation. When that happens, it's like , well, he will find a way to extricate himself from the game, which isn't easy because the other competitors, when you're losing, they want you there. You know how it is. They want you to stay there because they see your pio is not even there . Why ? But he will. He had no shame. He said, I have no shame and we'll kinda right from the table. Okay. He didn't feel it as shame , but that was Hayes H I and I've , I've seen this with traders over the years I worked with, I'll tell you another story of a , a big oil trader . I worked with the according to a huge drawdown and if at all, I'm pretty much out to show , I talked about this in the previous podcast . This happens with so much regularity. They miss , it comes to managing yourself. There are parents where you need to set yourself away from the action. It's what I call closure of of of a bad cycle that you've got into that the market's taken you into,
Speaker 5:I'm in front of work, I do around this sort of trade of mind fitness side, I mean the idea of of a reset, refresh, refocus, be it intraday beer entering inter month for whatever the concepts of it to manage yourself appropriately throughout changing market conditions where the market suddenly becomes perhaps too much feeling too much for you. You suddenly think, hang on , I'm seeing so much, but I'm seeing them feeling so little in terms of opportunity. Then having that sort of commitment, that part of the process is managing yourself. And so , so I actually have, it was quite natural that you step away to reset, refresh and refocus because then allows you to see the opportunity more clearly because the boss, you may not most , you may be looking at the market thinking there's an opportunity there for me. And getting frustrated by that. The more frustration you get, the less you will see. So it's a reset, refresh and refocus, gets you back into that mindset where you look at the market through a different Lens where you could actually see the opportunity that's been staring in the face, but
Speaker 4:actually you've not been seeing it. Yes, yes. And we're all humans. So you know, Mark says we're in the most powerful [inaudible] in our, there's not apple piece of technology that's powerful. We are the most powerful piece of technology in our toolbox. But that needs to be managed because the downside to that is that we don't work like a computer in a straight line. You know , we have places , signs where we're optimum and times where we're suboptimal. Yeah .
Mark Hutchinson:And did you, do you think it's about you ? Do you think it's about being comfortable with that? Being comfortable with that? It's not always going to be just a straight path and , and people that are on upcoming don't think that that's true. They look up to successful people and think that they just went into kind of this straight line.
Speaker 4:What does one understand that? People
Mark Hutchinson:always so happy. Yeah cause that's not the truth.
Speaker 4:No, no, no. So I think from a trading perspective it's going to be a series of ups and downs. And do you remember what we say this in the financial press and I think a lot of financial journalists don't gets it. So if a really successful trader in a fund and that they , the other guys who get with the attention have a losing year, they will be criticized in the financial press and some investors were pulling their money. But you know these guys, you know, you have to look at their mobile to your record and you have to recognize that they cannot, they cannot be performing at extraordinary levels every single year. And you know, you say something like , has Tyler Young lost it or as buffet lost it if I had run back , yeah, they may have lost as much as everybody else. He like, yeah, it's a question of companion. I , it's uh , it's , it's management. I met Mike in the best out of what's there, which they were the best to make money, but there's also the case of well, you're going to come through some, look for some shocks in the market. We'll you will lose, we lose money but lose money in a way that suits you Robinson suit somebody else. It's having the right mindset. You know, when I traded there would be periods where, you know, like you said, you can have every pattern and every set up and every bit of data. So can about the market going one way and your call can be wrong. Good trading isn't just making money. It's also keeping your losses small when you call with the market wrong. Yeah . And some of my best days over my years with days with where I've got the market completely wrong, kind of were completely the wrong position. And then walked out with a fairly small loss or even no loss got out and moved on. I moved on and that for me was a really successful done. And that's what so many people just think trading is about making money. It's not about doing the processes as you mentioned, running following them and stayed with them. Because if you do that right and you develop the good habits over time those habits will compound and you were doing more and more. Right. Yeah . And in the earlier is nothing , this is something we could come back to mount . Cause I know you worked with a lot of early year traders . It's more about getting the processes right and the mindset right and developing good habits that it is about earning an income. Yup . I'm not gonna get completed . Completely agree. Yeah. I really want to put that to you because that's your area of speciality. You know, I know Falcon FX works with a lot of , um, young traders who are getting into this business and , and that can lead on , so a question I could've asked you actually might be, you can ask that part then and then I perhaps um, you know, sort of give us an answer. What are some of the things you notice about new trade is , um, this question is in many parts, but we've got to ask you to you when you meet some of that , we'll get talking to some of them. Do you guys sense that the guys who are probably gonna succeed and probably gonna do well just from when you start talking to them?
Mark Hutchinson:Yes, within probably about a minute. And it usually comes from the questions that they ask. It's normally the topic questions. They are. So the, the, the successful guys and girls I see that, you know, kind of move forward and , and progressed very quickly is that they often ask me about processes straight away they ask me what's a good way to process. They never talk about, they never ever asked the question. So I'd be good to actually , uh , beg the question that they don't know . They never ask how long is this going to take me. And I often find that as, as the people that ask me that question, how long is this going to take me? What's the likelihood of, you know, after a year they want to get a ballpark of when they think they're going to be successful that are kind of go in with the wrong mindset straight away. So I find talking to people that ask really great questions about processes, they're , they're longterm thinkers and I find this, the person that wants to come in with the idea that they say, well look, they say, mark, I don't care whether this takes me three years, five years, seven years, I want to figure this out because I'm serious about this longer term. Those are the ones that actually usually make it happen in a couple of years and they actually get successful. It's those that set the kind of the deadline, if you like. The ones that I find that are not successful, they set deadlines. I say, you know, by December, 2019 I'm going to be consistently profitable. I'm going to take on my first investment. And they forced that upon themselves within that six month period. But the market doesn't understand six months you might not be ready, you might not be emotionally mature for six months. And they forced that and then they label themselves as a failure, which isn't true within that six month period. So I find the successful people that I speak to, they, they measure their progression. They don't think they know their forever a student and I , and I feel the same way. I'm still learning and developing and they see it as well rather than to any deadlines. How about I actually my progression say in six months I'm going to focus to the best of my ability in these processes and I'm going to make refinement 1% tweak off the 1% tweak and I'm going to assess where I am and I'm going to look back and see, oh, I'd love growth. Where am I at now and how can I move forward for the next three months, six months? And one year. So that's what I've personally found from speaking to a lot of successful people that do well.
Speaker 4:Okay. That's brilliant. And I think our fame , one of the snapshots for the publicize in this podcast with me now , that was such a great answer and there was so much richness in there. I think we can almost have a single one hour conversation about that answer or another time
Speaker 5:coming up for me as a sort of a question. I think one Steve and I sort of spoke about before Nate perhaps yet, but it was this idea of just this the model of approach that you take regarding new traders or people that actually perhaps are not traders that are coming soon to your world to understand and , and face this thing called the market. Um, and if you're happy to just to sort of share the sort of the methods that your , your , your sort of instructing them in terms of, you know , looking at the marketplace and trying to work out, you know, what's going to go on next and where , where the opportunities are. Would you mind to just go into a bit more detail about just just how you would treat sort of a new entrant as it were to take an opportunity out at the market?
Mark Hutchinson:Yeah, for sure. Well it's really important that you know when you're just entering the market, especially the way that we look at the market. So I have two types of people have people that have been trained for a while and they have a lot of habits to one learn and I have the fresh blood as we as we like to call them. So the fresh and come in. They don't really understand what's going on. They don't know whether they should focus on money, they don't know they should step money, tree goals, percentage goals and I kind of just have a level playing field and say look, forget about sending , setting any percentage go whatsoever because your, your percentage will be a side effect of great processes like I've highlighted before and as we get to spot opportunities, we focus mainly technical so we're not very macro driven . We don't really focus on the fundamental side. We have a slightly different view on news and things like that. Essentially there's quite the often say, which is news creates volatility not direction. So what I mean by that is that the fundamental picture, the fundamental picture may already be decided, right? Whether that's driven by a macro and for a dollar bullet word or whatever it may be. But what I will say is that when the news comes out and let's say there's always news coming out of CPI or this kind of stuff, that that just creates or rate announcement that just creates volatility and that volatility will not alter the direction the direction is already been decided. And what we use is we use pattern, they repeat themselves and they have a probable percentage of playing out, which gives us our edge over time. Now we drill down from the , you know , the high timeframe all the way down to the lower timeframes saying , well , for the monthly all the way to the 15 minute chart. And that's where we really dive into those opportunities. So I really encourage people to think about, don't worry about what everything else is doing, focus on just a small set of things like these patterns that repeat themselves. Understand the concept of the probable and the possible. So what I mean by that is that if we're looking at let's say a pattern for example, more technical based, we will see well this pattern is likely to achieve let's say a third touch right now we know that there's, that the pattern doesn't always complete, it doesn't always have to have a third touch. And is there anything within that pattern that we've figured out that has a high enough criteria that satisfies the criteria of rules that still gives us an edge. And if there is, but we can see that as the possible outcome because to wait for the probable always we'd be to wait for perfection and the market's is not perfect. So I would really push them into that.
Speaker 5:Yeah. But you're still let you almost sort of pre try it in the event based upon previous activity historically to the , to essentially access the trade almost before one would normally expect it to break out, for example, because you'll, you , you'll rely upon a pattern that's proved reliable in the past or , or , or , um, special passing a , B , a market behave yet that's always been reluctant in the past.
Mark Hutchinson:Yes. Yes. And that's something that we, you know , back tests , we've got lots and lots of years of data, but I think the key thing there is that patterns can evolve. Patterns can look like a pattern right now and then it can develop into something else. So it's more so that I think more people do where they struggle with chart patterns as they look at it in isolation. So this is an ascending channel and this is how it reacts. But the truth is you have to look at it in a , in a much bigger picture and what it can evolve into and have a management tool in place to be able to deal with each scenario . So we won't manage your position exactly the same. We use time depending on where it is in the structure, what cycle it says as in the impulsive phase of the corrective phase. So right now we've been in a very corrective period and that's tried and true in patterns that we've seen repeat themselves and eventually they'd break out . Right. And we're seeing it in the DXY at the moment, which even then you had a chat about at the conference about the people that kind of live in denial that they kind of forced themselves upon that there's going to be a dollar ball run. And what they do is they get blind sighted when something changes. They don't take a message from the market and they think that the bull run may happen. Right. I'm not disputing that. But when it will happen, that remains to be seen and a lot can change before that. So I really pushed to the newer guys is that try not to force what you think happen and just be prepared that you can never be 100% on what's going to happen. And don't let your ego get involved where you almost get offended if you feel like you're wrong. And focus on the fact that you could have the highest criteria set up to the tee. You'll get from God type trade that you believe and you have to accept that that still might not play out because it's a probability game, not an game.
Speaker 4:And you've raised the point that are put out, which we kind of went by , we were discussed a little bit earlier in a different way of how the market changes you and then you force yourself once to the Middle Kit and the there is of Econ . If you're getting a perfect set up the market, not doing what you expected and then you'd taken it personally and seeing it as a failure, which is where you come. And Sue , and I know you want me to ask me a question about this. A fixed mindset. So the growth mindset is to actually look at everything and not , not blame yourself, not, you know, sort of try and learn from it and traumatic set that things happen that are outside your control. And it's not , it's not a failing on your polls . It's just heroin is, it's part of the environment. But if you see it as a failure, it's like it [inaudible] your ego steps in and then take control of the controller of the leavers. And when that happens, it's never pretty. And you know, in my trading career, you know, which was over the 20 years, that happened a few times, you know, even when I was very experienced and it's, it creeps up on you. It doesn't happen in an obvious way . And when it happens, it's always , uh , an ugly. There's an ugly outcome, whether it's a failure to monetize a great opportunity or whether it's a bad loss. And when we go back , and so when you talked about walking away, that is why you have to learn to walk away. You have to learn to remove yourself. It's about self management as well. And you know, I think you've kind of, you hit the nail on the head with that one and it's a lot , it's a lot of losses cause life's like
Host 2 Mark R :they've got , if they've happened to , you're upset about it. Give you clear that they're going to happen again. Um, so just a tight, take it into your mindset that part of this journey will involve some losses. It will invoke some wins . You guys got to make sure that you know, your stop loss doesn't turn into a double up, which is so much the, the biggest disaster you can do. Just stick into a plan. If that is your stop level, get out. I'll go back to the three R's . So if you know , reset, refocus, refresh and go back to the market and look for the next opportunity. And
Speaker 4:when you said learn to love your losses, that was a mantra I gave myself in the later stages of my career. Early stage of my career. Okay . I never had that mantra and I would look on losses personally. An early, like early on I said in that final year I had a 10% win rate part of my manager , which got me through that as a manger of learning to love . Lost it . There you go . Cause I should have really earlier, I should've been , I knew if I could keep having these losses. And keep taking them and in my mind, have the idea that I need these losses to get the big
Speaker 5:reads . If I don't have them, my process won't happen around the stick to it and they won't have the big wins, the passes with no penalty . But if you don't have losses, you won't learn. It's a kind of very , I need to learn how to brace for a reason. You got a lot, you got a lot. Yeah . Progress on [inaudible] . If Taiga Wa titled We'll talk about one . It's tiger woods. Never lost it. Never win . You know you need to lose to learn to get better, to optimize yourself in whatever high performance thing you're in. Right. So this is high performance . The trading, it's high performance. They want to see it as gaming. It's gaming, but it's high performance. I'm , you know these knock , she got a loan from the Knox because they will make you perform better. If you guess Moan and Groan about how useless one is because you're losing, losing, losing. If you're not . Yeah , it's lightening something else. It's my machine. It's the latency of me putting the trading . It's not pattern recognition is not as good as it should be. Maybe won't move on that. But as he said, let go, move on. Just so significant and trading.
Mark Hutchinson:Yeah, it's still so hard for people to do because they fill the need. They filled the need to want to be in the market. But first and foremost, capital preservation has to be key. That should be the first part of your goal. Protecting your capital because you need to take it serious like a business. And most people they , they, they say, yeah, I'm going to treat it like a business. But they don't, they don't have, no, they don't. They don't track their performance. They don't look at their mistakes. They don't even see if they stick to their plan or they don't have a trading plan. I haven't back tested, you know, they don't take it serious like the business. And I think that's something that I would love to see more of even the retail side do. And I would see more educational providers actually preached that rather than kind of spoonfeeding people and creating a real rely on traders rather than independent trades. Of Falcon. I'm big on training independent traders. That's why when I go with my analysis on a weekly basis and I'm doing my Fort Coast forecast , I don't say to people, you know , you should have exactly the same watch list as me. Normally they're going to have their thereabouts, but some people are gonna have different currency pairs. They're looking at somewhat different cars. You pass the , they, you know, they know the feel of it more. They know the move a bit more and they focused on that. And sometimes they ask, I'll have comes , you don't have, you know, the euro over the Canadian dollar this week. And I'll say that if I'd done anything wrong. So you haven't done anything about the tourist good, you're being more independent. So Falcon is all about how do we, and what I love about trading is that it holds you accountable to the highest degree. Because what I've personally found for a lot of successful traders, one discipline affects another. So if you're not focusing on other areas of your life and you're not growing as an individual, that then as a side effect effects your trading. So for me, what I love about trading, which keeps me passionate and focused is not just the monetary part of it, it's more so the fact that I know I have to shown , I know that I have to be focusing on all areas of my life and grow and expand as a person. Otherwise my results would probably suffer. And that keeps me accountable to myself. And that's the part that I love the most.
Host 2 Mark R :Yeah. And I suppose that's also the difference between a professional trader and a retail trader. A professional trader is going to be diligent, is going to be, you know, managing risk appropriately is going to understand what he's trading and why he's trading it. You know, the concept of fair value because we start to lose touch with that. As a professional trader, have you tried , had you tried ? Um, they tend to be very creative at the professional level, more creative than perhaps through retail. That tends to maybe just choosing one product and the opportunities might , might be an areas that you're not familiar with. But if you dip into the unfamiliar, make sure you learn about the unfamiliar.
Speaker 4:Okay. Can I cut in there for a second? Can I come see you there a second? Because I know him in preparation for these podcasts, you asked that question. So us , what is the difference between a professional trader and a retail trader in our opinion. And it was really interesting because my from out, sorry, you were about to say something.
Mark Hutchinson:Yes. Yeah, I was saying I was , I would love to know though. That's the thing, his thoughts on that.
Speaker 4:Okay. Cause me and milk discussed that before this call and we probably had a slightly different opinion. Um, I mean obviously the, the natural , um, the obvious answer is that professional trader gets paid to do the job. They've got a big safety net and there's lots of other factors. They're normally doing it in an institution. But actually when I hear you talk , um, and I know some of the private traders or uh , I tend to go with the private traders, but retail trade is another phrase for it. Some of the rates have traded as a private traders. I know a far better than some of the institutional traders and professional traders. I know. And some of them, you know, there's some guys I know actually they're sitting on a desk at a hedge fund, but they've never really run much risk before they've come through from an analytical role , which I'm actually quite critical with the hedge funds. But doing that because being an analyst is not really a qualification for being a a manager of risk. I , you know, whereas professional traders, you know, they eat what they can . It's a phrase I love to use, you know, and that creates a very different mindset. So actually this, you know, I know a few professional traders, I've met some over the last few months and a couple of years actually from social media and I think they are actually much higher quality than some of the pros. Some of the people who get paid to take risks . We agreed on that. And then there's a slightly different side of it as well in that some of them are in market making rose , which also requires a different mindset as well to being on a buy side trader or a proxy trader. You know, I've worked in banks, but if I'm honest, I always used to think I sucked as a market maker. It wasn't something I was good at. Like I always preferred to like proprietary risk. Um, and the guys on you who were great market makers, they were brilliant submersing float , but I know some of them that have tried to move into buy side and professional and retail rose and they've really struggled. And that's partly because of that, the habits that they developed or the roam habits for being a propriety trader . And I think you alluded to that earlier, mark , where you, so you've have people who says ,
Host 2 Mark R :and that's really, really important because the professional side of the business has that quite naturally. Yes. Yeah. The broker, the chat that the , the, the, the research guys , everything, if you're doing it on your own, you are everything. You know, I had a complainant , she had a backup issue, the head of Ed of what went wrong yesterday and how do I fix that as well as, you know , managing wife, kids and everything else. Um, so my message to the retail size is don't forget about you in this equation. And that's, and there are two polar opposites there in terms of in the professional side, it's easier to be managing yourself because there's the structures to support you on the retail side. Unless you're bothered to do that, it doesn't really exist.
Speaker 4:And I'm gonna throw it out. I would see your mark if you could answer mark .
Mark Hutchinson:No , I , I you, you raised some interesting points, both you and I and I think the point, I'd love to talk about that , but you said there's loneliness kills and it does. And I think this is the most important thing that people need to understand. There's only a certain type of personality that can be on the retail side, like you say, that can literally stare at the screen on their own, manage their back office, do all of that and still succeed. Now I find myself, you know , without blowing my own trumpet, one of those individuals that I was able to do that for a period of time until I then felt very, very lonely because I think you need to be comfortable with your own company. And I've got, I got to that point where I was very contented to myself, you know, I felt confident within myself. I was able to, I started other businesses before and things like that and I was just, I was a confident person. But then it got to a point where I felt so lonely. The way I used to do is my , my brother's a property developer , Tony had, he had an office, a business office, and you could have 24 hour access. So when I was trading, especially, I was trading my investor capital in the earliest stages. I used to have such a bad routine of timing because I could do what I want, when I want, where I want that I would go to the office really late and I'd be the only one that, because it's , you know , after hours. And I would stay up so late to the Asian session and I would end up trading the Asian session for no reason, just because I was that . And it got to a point where I felt so lonely and thought this, this, this can't be sustainable. I'm not, I'm looking at, you know, they had one of those community areas where they had that vending machines and things, and I was kind of just take a wonder for the car door and I'd be staring at the vending machine thinking this just what my life is like now. You know, I may be making money and maybe trading invested capital , or I might have my freedom, but I actually feel more lonely than ever, which made me want to start the Falcon project. And I think that what we've done here at Falcon is not just create this, oh, here's the strategy. Uh , go and crack on with it and just, you know , give it a crack and see how you get on. We hold people accountable and we don't keep people, we don't keep people in the community that don't have the right mindset. We tell them to go work on themselves because we won't allow that to tarnish the community that we have so many like minded people, which is why we do things like conferences. Which again really appreciate you attending the conference. Steven . So many people took so much value from your talks that you gave and having events like that where people can actually have that banter that you say, you know, kind of socialize, have people to meet up. We have meet ups that happen on a regular basis each month where they can kind of say, look, this is the progression I made. How did you get on? Did you have any lessons that you learned this month? And we're all a collective together as a community and we focus on those. So, you know , we can put people in line and, and one thing that I've made from day one is that to make sure that if someone has a question, they don't feel intimidated. There's no egos, big egos here in our community. It's more about if you have a question, good, we're going to reach out to you. And people will say they're always pleasantly surprised and say, I cannot believe they're the first community that I've come into where I feel like I can just be myself. I can tell people my struggles. I can tell people what's actually going on. I can ask a question and I know I'm going to get a reply. So I would say I completely agree with that side of it. That's something that people really have to be careful of. I know it's nice to want to feel like, yeah , go out and do it on your own. But having a likeminded community that support network from sustainability, I think is the key word . You may be able to do it for a couple of years on your own, but talk to me in 20,000 years unless you've gone insane. And I'm , and I mean that, you know, as a , as a real warming, you have to have like money people around you to keep you in check.
Speaker 4:I think you've got to keep, you've got to invest in that. And I think people forget if you invest in that time, physical effort and money, it will pay itself back many times over. And people don't think about that. They often think of it as a cost. You have to think of those investing in that. So it's so important what you said. Um, I , I just want to come back to something you said about that conference because yeah , I spoke at your conference and judge just for the audience who are listening , uh , Falcon effects' put on a fantastic conference in London on the 24th floor of the short , which is a beautiful building and that sense of London, it's your serverless spiriting . Um , I was hugely impressed by the conference. I was hugely impressed by the atmosphere there. The Camaraderie amongst the people. I met some amazing people, but rabies surprised. But you know, there was running individual I met who works on an oil rig in the North Sea and he comes back and he chides when he's back from that, I met a young German student , um, a young girl who , who asked me what books I recommended and uh, um , I've got a feeling she could be a very successful Trigere one day. She's only just started and she's one of those people to ask questions. And , and funnily enough, I tend to believe in books about mindset. And every book I mentioned, she was either reading or had read, which I was really impressed about. And then I gave it to a seminar to a that it was a Q and. A . I'll just ask the audience to ask questions about me. And there were some brilliant questions I wanted to ask you one question, which run young trader at the front asked me, which, which I thought was a brilliant question. Um, and it's how it does a trade to make himself bulletproof . I love that question because I've heard it so many times in different forms over the years and I'd love to hear your answer to that question almost as a kind of wrap up to this, this hour, this conversation .
Mark Hutchinson:Awesome. I think that's a perfect way to actually wrapped it up because I think that firstly, if we approached bulletproof in the market, so I think that being bulletproof in the markets is can be something of a hard thing to achieve because it's the market's imperfect and to start to strive for perfection. If we used to say that putting the same lines of bulletproof and perfection together, we'd Fred to be disappointed because we would feel like I'm not perfect rather than actually focusing on the progression that we've made. But if we was to focus more on the bulletproof mindset, which I believe is something more attained obtainable, is that it can take years, it can take sometimes years of programming , refining, developing, and you have to learn to cope with different situations in life. And I would say possibly over the last eight to nine years I've been using things like the goal setting. And I think that I'm really, really big on is understanding the subconscious brain, right? I think we can both agree that majority of the things that we do is subconscious and affirmations affirmation . Some people love them, some people don't do them, some people don't believe in them. It's been a big pillar my life to ask for make my way towards success and really a fun one thinking because I'm so particular with language, right? We have on that they say the average human had something like 75,000 thoughts per day and 19 you know 91% of their source will be exactly the same tomorrow. So I always beg the question that if you're going to make yourself bulletproof and you get to work in that bulletproof mindset, then you need to have things that are practical to be able to move towards that and managing that inner dialogue . And I use the word manage , not control for a reason that the word to control or don't think is obtained book cause we can't fully control everything but we can manage because sometimes things that they are what they are is what it is. Just the same with the markets. But if we can learn to manage our mind and we can focus on practical things like let's say affirmation, it might work for somebody, then you can keep yourself in check. And I think it's about just setting daily goals, ticking them off, checking in with yourself and measuring your progression. And that bullet for his mindset will just get stronger and stronger as a side effect of, again, having just great processes.
Speaker 4:Okay. So I mean that's a brilliant answer. We've only got a couple of minutes left, so I'm conscious of the time, but I'm gonna hand over to mark because you moved very much into his space. Um , just to explain to the audience, Mark Randall , uh , worked as a broker in the futures and options markets in London for over 30 years. He used to run that West RBS futures sales sales. Okay. And , um, you know, he's developed himself as an expert in the area of mindfulness. Um , he used it himself to optimize his performance when he was in his working row and then he's been delivering the sessions based on what he taught himself at a corporate level over the last few years and is now delivering these two to traders and investment professionals. And he's created a product he actually calls mind fitness. Mike , maybe you want to just sort of respond to what mark said, sit
Speaker 5:there . No, no. Of course, a bunch of , most of that resonates with me as well . The idea of a , you know, you can't get rid of the 70,000 thoughts per day. You can't get rid of them, but you content turn down the volume of them you can actually send you. So it's managing your response to this suggests, you know, understanding their thoughts and not latching onto them and living with them is pretty much behind the , uh, sort of the mind fitness process. Uh , 99% of the thoughts that you're thinking about tend to be negative, skewed, and tend to be worrying you. So this affirmation, this positive affirmation procedure is vital. And just getting this , uh, the right positive mindset to face things, but on these kids , these things can be trying through 'em. So there's a mindfulness program that I run , um, that sort of delivered in a way that's more geared up to military mind fitness more get up to perhaps what the , uh, Serena Williams, she's not under sent Nicole yesterday when I was watching her in a fabulous real time. You know, that grit, that mindset that creates a bulletproofness in itself, you know, you will take bullets if they won't take , they won't hurt you. So it's learning to take those bullets. Yeah, I mean , bulletproof doesn't mean, but it's not hitting you, but it's going to be hitting you. It's the theater that the market is a theater of war and you've got to gear up to weaponize the mind. So it's working for you, not against you. It can so much work against you. It's the wrong mindset because if it drifts you off into the negative, attracts you up into seeing opportunities rather than it's always seeing challenges rather than opportunities. Um, and the longterm impact on you if you're not managing that is you're so choked up with this emotion that it's dissolving any emotional intelligence you've got for a start, which is where edge is in the market. You're is your edge isn't in our queue . It's in a queue . And so this program of developing a Q through mind fitness about building a Silva but building a method of just dealing with it, whatever it is, right? I lost it . Lots of efforts are coming at us, right? They could be personal, private market will ever, and you could be really, really bad at trading today because something personal happened last night and you didn't manage it. Okay. So you could , you know , so you might not have slept well, you might be dehydrated. All these things add up together to be what is optimal and what is bulletproof , uh , unlike can be taught. It's a, it's a method that of approaching life in the market in a particular way. And it's not difficult, I guess to be needs to be told. Am I still sentic way? But that's possible. And of course that's something that Steve and I are working on with the uh , Alpha Fish , mine's dot net , uh, which, which gives you a summary of that. We have put a out pitching ourselves of thought. I mean, I hope that gives you a bit of an answer it size in some what you'll do in that, but I mean it's critical. I would not have survived 30 40 years in markets, particularly going through the crashes and flashes and golden as well as a been at the full front of the futures , including pitch writing. I would not have got through that lot if I hadn't been managing myself.
Mark Hutchinson:Hmm . No, I obviously loved that and I love the time that you used there , kind of that military grade type mindset and using it as a weapon because I think it's so important that we don't, life doesn't get easier. We get stronger. There's no quote there . Right. And not the same thing you're going to , you're going to learn how to take a bullet regardless. It's just a rather new wishing it was easier just to find ways to manage it and get stronger and dealt with it. I'm really fascinated about what you're working on there . I love that.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and you sit, you'll say, when would an send a coat day after day for the next few days? You will see what that means. That , but it's , it's a not well on the last bad shot that, but it seemed to be focused. It was, it was a different, and it's the difference. It might be a subtle difference, but that subtle difference of edge is a difference between losing money and making money.
Speaker 4:What's your , do you know about the, the, the form of mindfulness you learned from the guys called the leafy brothers are actually delivered a mindfulness program, series of programs dependency to put a pen, skin and particularly to the u s special forces. Yeah . And then if there is one of these years where lots of different special forces from different countries come together for war games and the US special forces completely outperformed everyone else, including their previous levels of performance. Because I been through these programs and they saw our opportunities where no one else saw with them. It's not just about becoming bulletproof , it's about becoming, like you said, stronger,
Speaker 5:but it was the soft stuff that was coming through as well. When I developed this program for the military, they thought, yeah, it's going to be around the ego and managing that turning up and showing up if you have the capability of starting world war three about behaving properly. But what also came out of it was they didn't expect it was the troops were becoming more creative in their solutions around warfare. They didn't expect that. I also didn't expect to be hearing from the children of the troops bank in the Pentagon for bringing that that home at night because normally that would come, but we coming home or coming back from basically home, but mentally absent. Precisely. Yeah. So they would get in that, that mentally back and the children were benefiting as too . So family life was getting better, Nicholas , that that's better. That kind of helps in your performance in these roles. So they saw a huge benefit from this program and I was quite privileged to, to spend a day with the , uh , with the leave is a husband and wife, would you believe? Yeah. Uh , from California. Yeah. Um, uh, funded by dependent on , is going to create this program for , for the special forces called ultimate warrior , um, which I turned into jet warrior with two typers crossing fit sin , but you know, it's peak performance [inaudible] traitor in new lines . Hey, cut .
Mark Hutchinson:Yes, I'll take that one . No , I loved that . And it's amazing to be changing people's lives the way you're doing it. Yeah.
Speaker 5:Listen, I'm conscious of the time. Do you have any sort of final points you run a mate mark?
Mark Hutchinson:I would , I would say that the most important thing I will say too , and just to finish it off , I always say to my, you know , students and things like that, if you really want to remove your ego out of the market as much as possible when there's a line, I always say humble yourself or the markets will do it for you. And I won . I want a lot of lessons to think about that, right, because it doesn't matter how cocky you can get in the market, the market will humble you in seconds and that could be with a flash crash slippage. It could be lots of number of things, so learn to humble yourself and it will serve you longer time .
Speaker 6:We're do .
Speaker 4:That's fantastic. We're missing it. Really appreciate having your own mark. Fantastic insights and a, I know you're doing some great work round there. We've enjoyed that. That was good. Yeah, good chat wasn't that lots of value. I really, really appreciate you having me on.
Mark Hutchinson:Honestly , it was incredible to know shattered discussions with you and hear your points of view. I think listeners are going to take tons of value from this.
Speaker 5:Wonderful. Good luck with everything. Yeah. All right, best and good luck with Falcon.
Host 1 Steven G:Thank you so much to Mark Hutchinson. That was an excellent interview. Some fantastic insights. I'm sure you enjoyed it and I'm sure that left you with many questions, so on behalf of myself and my cohost , smart ran through. Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode of the afternoon podcast, please go on Sir iTunes of raters . Leave us a favorable review. If you can, we'd really appreciate that. Please feel free to listen to many of the other outstanding podcasts in this series. We also have some great interview guests lined up for future episodes, so be sure to subscribe to the podcast to make sure you don't miss those and also you can follow us on social media. We're on Twitter. My , my page is at Alpha Mind One oh one and Mark's page is at the mind. Guys, you can also join our linkedin group. We have a vibrant linkedin group with over 15,000 members. It's called the air for my linkedin group. Please feel free to connect to me on Linkedin if you're interested to know anything more about the work, myself and Mark Randall to whether rates possibly running a workshop for your firm or or or or your company or whether you're interested in some of the coaching work we do. Please email Mei , Steven dot goldstein@alpharcubeddotcomoremailmayinfoforocube.com or you can contact us through any of our social media connections. Thank you very much once again. Bye Bye.
Speaker 4:[inaudible] .
